Raw Minds
Welcome to Raw Minds, the podcast where we explore the challenges and triumphs of men's mental health, single fatherhood, and daily life experiences. In each episode, we dive deep into the issues that go on in men's minds, sharing personal stories and insights that can help you better understand yourself and the world around you. Whether you're a single dad, dealing with mental health challenges, or simply looking for inspiration and guidance, this podcast is for you. So, sit back, relax, and join us on this journey of self-discovery and growth.
Raw Minds
Raw Minds S2 Ep. 9 - Escaping the Cult, Defending the Law: A Man's Fight for Freedom
In this deeply moving and powerful episode of Raw Minds, Laverne courageously shares his story of survival, pain, and eventual hope. Raised in the tightly controlled environment of a cult, Laverne was subjected to sexual abuse that haunted him well into adulthood. Despite escaping the cult, he found himself trapped in emotionally abusive relationships, and although he built a career in law enforcement, his path took a devastating turn when a psychological injury ended his career.
During this dark period, Laverne faced a prolonged mental health crisis, struggling with suicidal thoughts for months, too terrified to speak up. When he finally gathered the courage to confide in the one person he trusted, their response—“I know”—before walking away, left him feeling abandoned. But the love for his young daughter, who crawled into bed with him each night, and the thought of her and her brother, became his anchor, giving him the strength to keep going, even when he didn’t know how.
Laverne has since turned his pain into purpose, publicly sharing his story to expose the stigma around mental health and to offer hope to those still struggling in silence. His journey from darkness to light is a testament to resilience, courage, and the unbreakable bond between parent and child.
Follow Laverne’s journey and support his work to inspire others:
- Facebook: Laverne Friesen
- Instagram: @trueemotioncoach
- TikTok: @trueemotiondad
- Website: www.trueemotion.ca
Call to Action: If you’ve dealt with toxic surroundings or have your own experiences with bad apples, we want to hear from you. Drop us a comment, share your story, or leave a review to help others who might be going through the same thing. You can also reach out to us at Rawmindspodcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode with someone who might need it.
And we are back once again to the show that shatters the silence on men's mental health. We are unedited, unfiltered.
Speaker 2:And, as always, we are going raw. I'm Anthony.
Speaker 3:And my name is Joey and I'm Eric and we're your hosts. And welcome to Raw Minds.
Speaker 1:Raw motherfucking Minds. How are you doing, guys?
Speaker 2:Excellent man Excellent, yeah, not bad not bad it's like 20 degrees here today, man really yeah, just summer's back baby had buddy perks of living on the west coast for you guys yeah, we're in the rainforest, that's what it is right?
Speaker 3:yeah, we, we don't even drive to work we take canoes.
Speaker 1:We don't even drive to work, we take canoes.
Speaker 3:Yeah there you go Buddy, there's sinkholes, I mean there is like the road was flooded, Like one cop was like directing or stopping people and he was like up into his waist of water on the street. It was insane man.
Speaker 2:Just directing cars through lakes, yeah pretty much. Yeah, awesome.
Speaker 3:We're just waiting for Elon Musk now to make the electronic boats. We're good to go, yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:How about you, joey? It's a good day. You really try to strive for making your day better than the day before, even just one percent one little bit, man, is all you can do.
Speaker 1:As anybody knows, life can be pretty tough sometimes, but it's what you make of it, right? Only you and you only can pull yourself out of. You know whatever situations that you're in, right, because nobody's coming to save you and it's only up to you. So you know, you gotta wake up every morning and and know that you, you're gonna win that day. Right, you win the morning, you win the day right.
Speaker 3:Count your blessings, brother. Count your blessings, and it's a big one that we always talk about right is gratitude, right, that, right, that's huge, that's right.
Speaker 1:Just be grateful for the things you have and not what you don't have, and you'll be surprised on how your life changes just by doing that.
Speaker 1:You know, and everybody's so stressed and you know, like we say, first world problems, you know, because I don't have the Mercedes and I don't have this, and poor me, and you know what I mean. It's just, man, like we have so much, especially where we live in in the Western world, man, that we really need to look at. And you know, you have healthy kids, you got a good family, you got a roof over your head, and just just the small things, man, and we take it for granted, right, yeah, so you know, you start learning that gratitude, man, I tell you, your life changes and it took me a long time to get there because I was always, oh, I wish I had that, I'd be happy if I had this, and. But you got to be happy within yourself, right? So when you get up every and you, you just got to be better than you were the day before, that's all you can do, right?
Speaker 3:exactly that's right and paying it forward too. It's good to pay it forward.
Speaker 1:That's just it, right, that's the biggest thing is just, you know you're in a drive-thru, even Just pay for the coffee of the person behind you, man, and smile and just say you know, good morning to somebody. But it's a real shame. That's, it's, it's, it's a real shame, man, it is. And you could really change someone's day just by buying them that coffee or just, you know, asking how they're doing. Hey, how was your?
Speaker 3:day fucking smiling, even man smiling at someone. Maybe someone has a shitty day, you know. You walk by them, smile, give them a nod. They, they could have been on their way to go do something stupid, and then you just change them right or they're they're just feel alone and they're, you know, broken.
Speaker 1:And then there's somebody and they feel like nobody. Or sometimes there's people that feel like they don't got nobody and nobody cares if they're around you know and just that that one little act of kindness could really change someone's day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like, go up to the person. You know that, like I I did this recently actually there was someone you could tell just started at the gym, you know, and they were struggling but I just went up I said you keep up the good work, man, proud of you, and then walked away and just that little encouragement to someone's day could be massive. Yeah, but it's sad because most people, like they don't even say thank you when you hold the door open for them. I'm like what the hell is wrong with people. You know what I mean. Yeah, once you're able to do that like, you'll notice a change too in the people that you attract. And all that because you're just being a good person. That's what you attract into your life, is what you put out, and if you are that miserable person doesn't say thank you, snobby, this, well all the people around you're going to be just like that and it's not a, it's not a healthy way to live, so bad apple effect.
Speaker 3:Buddy, yes, sir, 100 right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just talked about that, yeah, and that's, that's massive, especially in the workplace, at your home, I mean, if you're just negative and complaining and victim mentality, like man, like you're, you're, you're gonna live a pretty miserable life and nobody's gonna want to hang out with you. Your kids don't want to play with you, your wife will probably leave you, if you just you know what I mean. It's just be grateful, be happy with what you have and work off of that. Yeah so, but that's just people. Grateful, be happy with what you have and work off of that. Yeah so, people are free to live as they wish. But regardless, that doesn't change me or you guys on how you interact with people, right, when they say kill them with kindness, man, you want to be a dink. It's not going to affect my day, man, because I'm good, right, yeah.
Speaker 3:This is a big one for us today, where we've been talking about our guest here for a bit since we got his email. We've been very excited, so, uh, I think it's long overdue. Let's, um, bring him on here. So I'll tell you a little bit about our guest. Well, he grew up in a cult. He got into a lot of emotionally abused relationships, had a career in law enforcement, but due to his mindset, he had to leave that. So no further ado, let's bring in Laverne. Welcome Laverne.
Speaker 5:Hey, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Welcome sir.
Speaker 2:Welcome, welcome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're really happy.
Speaker 5:You guys are speaking my language about the gratitude. Oh 100%. I love it. Took me a long time to learn that.
Speaker 2:Oh it took me years. It's a learned skill for sure, it's a learned skill. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So I was just saying why don't you give us a little bit about yourself and your journey, to kind of what brought you here now?
Speaker 5:Yeah, absolutely Like you said. I grew up in a cult. I grew up in northern Alberta on a farm, rural area, long you know, isolated I guess, slated I guess, um, very controlling cults. Uh, told what to wear, what to believe, uh how to behave with pretty much everything. Uh, private schools. The crazy thing is is they only go to grade nine and their teachers aren't even educated. They are usually young women that haven't been married yet, and I'm talking to young women, like teenagers, because they tend to get married very young. There. They only had a grade 9 education, very strict schools, religious based, not much for like science I I remember I got, uh, well, corporal punishment was still going on, I don't know if it still is. Uh, I got several whippings when I was a kid. Uh, mostly because I was ADHD would be the root of it. Like, I wasn't necessarily a problem child, I was just easily distracted and didn't follow the rules you know as well as they would have wanted me to.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, when you, when you didn't follow the rules, what, what kind of stuff like when, any repercussions or anything like that? Like what and if so, what would they do?
Speaker 5:um, well, they'd like I got, I got, uh, I guess, beat on my hands in front of the class once in grade, grade two, with a um one of those yardsticks yeah, and I I have no idea why, like I think I walked up to the front of the class like putting something away, and then maybe grabbed the chalk and wrote something.
Speaker 5:When I was in grade two this will blow your mind I got threatened with a strap because we were rhyming words and I said rap and she said the teacher said, well, rap's been said already. And I said no rap like the music. And she threatened to strap me because that was like a bad word, because they didn't believe in music or TV or anything like that. So, yeah, I almost got a strap for saying the word rap as an RAP. So, yeah, I almost got a strap for saying the word rap as an RAP. I can't, I don't really remember why I was getting strapped, like I know once was for swearing, I think.
Speaker 5:Maybe, but it was all stupid stuff. Like you wouldn't even get sent to the principal's office for it. Like my kids wouldn't get sent to the principal's office for it. Like my kids wouldn't get sent to the principal's offices for it now.
Speaker 3:Uneducated teachers didn't know it Did the teachers. Is it the teachers that were like, like, hitting you?
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, and then Sorry, I just was just wanted to ask that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I don't like. Somebody told me recently that they stopped doing that, but they wouldn't even call home like to ask for permission. It was just kind of assumed that if your kids are in that school and they misbehave they're going to get strapped um. I had a I just recently reconnected with a guy that's about five years older than me and he's dyslexic and he said he used to get strapped up to like twice a day because he couldn't learn, and so you know they, they just thought he was misbehaving and so they'd strap them, trying to, you know, beat him, whip him, trying to get him to learn better.
Speaker 5:I guess um okay, like I don't know.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, literally try to beat, beat the sense into somebody.
Speaker 5:It doesn't make sense, but that's, that's what it sounds like yeah um no kidding I had a friend, so for me I was just easily distracted more. I had a have a friend that I grew up with that was more overactive ADHD, and they didn't know how to deal with them. So they taped him to his desk. What? And yeah, they taped his hands together. I still remember it because he was sitting right beside me, taped his hands together, taped his feet together and then taped his legs to the chair or to the desk.
Speaker 5:And he's sitting there like just screaming and fucking yelling and like I think of it now, man, like he was probably eight or nine years old, like, yeah, imagine what that did to him. Right, I have an eight year old boy, uh.
Speaker 3:I'd blow some shit up if that.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I just got like if someone did that to my kid I'd be laying fucking beatings down, man, yeah I'd be taking on the whole school yeah, no kidding man.
Speaker 5:So that that's the kind of the backwards world I grew up in Lots and lots of sexual abuse in such a controlling environment. And so they believe that they are the one true church, right? So they believe that they're the only people that are ever going to go to heaven, and there's like 25,000 of them in North America, right? Interesting. That's a whole other topic on its own. But, if their God is so loving and kind, don't you think he'd want a few more people in heaven with him to? Join him. Yeah, no kidding.
Speaker 5:Right, anyway, so they would never, ever admit anything had ever happened bad in their church. Um, so they're not calling the police for anything right like and um they don't want to look bad right well yeah you, you can't. You're the the only true Christians in the world, apparently, yeah.
Speaker 2:Did you guys have like a form of like your own form of enforcement, Like to enforce the rules that were pertained to this cult?
Speaker 5:So it's kind of complicated actually, because the preachers have their own control over everything and everybody is governed by fear and there's a lot of social control. So you can't step out of the norm because then the whole kind of tribe, you're ostracized, right. So everybody just kind of goes with how everybody else goes, but there's a lot of fear, Kind of getting ahead of myself. But like a friend of mine's dad was kicked out of the church for going to the police and telling the police that his son had been sexually assaulted in the church, Right.
Speaker 3:So they kicked him out of it. He was kicked out.
Speaker 5:Yeah, wow, for reporting it to the police. And you know, in recent years I've connected with a lady that used to be in that organization as well, and she said she's heard stories of people getting bribed with groceries for a year, all kinds of stuff going on just to keep people quiet, really. So when I was young, there was a prolific sexual offender in the community and all the boys my age knew who he was and knew what was happening, and we all talked about it and people were like, oh yeah, this happened to me at his house or whatever. And we're all like well, did you tell your parents? And they're like, yeah, yeah, I told my mom and dad, right, the church is going to deal with it, whatever. Well, so my parents brought me over there, like as a family, we went to that their family's place, and so I was concerned.
Speaker 5:I kind of, you know, was worried that maybe something would happen. And something did happen and I was assaulted and molested, and so I ended up telling my older brother, who told my dad, who then my dad came to me and I told him and I said, like, isn't this bad? Like shouldn't we call the police about this? And he said, no, we let the church deal with this. And so, um, needless to say, the church never dealt with it.
Speaker 5:And then, you know, six months later I was brought back there and the inevitable happened, and that's when I received like a super serious abandonment wound, which I can get into later, and that offender went on for years unstopped. He ended up. So when I was 18, so nine years later I heard about all the stuff he was doing, continuing to do, and so I called the police and I gave them a list of victims that I knew for sure had been victims, and and then I moved out of the area. But I heard later that he had gone to jail. And he did go to jail, and he I don't know.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I don't know how long he did in jail and then, kind of like over time, I realized that he was an upbringing, he was a product of his upbringing and he died when I was 34. And I actually felt sorry for him because it was someone that had died too like young. He was, you know, maybe 10 years older than me, but one of my friends who I grew up with, had talked to him after he got out of jail and he had been rehabbed I don't really know how to say it, but he had been in counseling and therapy in jail. He began to realize how much of a victim he had been and he told my friend he gave them names of four people from the community that had assaulted him when he was a little boy. Of them, two of them were preachers and one was a deacon, and so it's no wonder that nothing ever happened to him, because they were scared uh, something would come back on them. So not only were they protecting the image of the church, they were protecting themselves as well, and that's another thing I wanted to bring up about.
Speaker 5:That organization is that and I I I hesitate to call them a church because I don't believe you know how they operate. Is is in good faith. Yeah.
Speaker 5:They, they, they baptized. So you have to be, they believe you have to be born again to be saved, you know. And so the pressure is on when you're young to start joining the church and I grew up with anxiety and I never realized. I had anxiety because I was being told all the time you know you're going to go to hell if you don't become a Christian. You know what if the world ends tonight? What if you die tonight? Don't become a christian? You know what if the world ends tonight? What if you die tonight? I remember I was 13 and I had a preacher ask me you know, uh, it's almost like high pressure sales tactics, but to be, to be religious, and he, he said what happens if you die tonight? Or what happens at the world?
Speaker 5:ends tonight right man, I was 13, like I'm a kid they're implementing that in your head.
Speaker 3:They're using your, your weakness well, not not necessarily weakness, but I mean like. You know what I mean? Like you're, you're young, right? So you're naive, and they're just shoving this in your head and, of course, you're gonna believe them, because these are the people you look up to that's sick man yeah, and so of course
Speaker 2:sounds like it's fueled by fear, like that's what it is, that's all it is.
Speaker 5:There's nothing to do with love or you know, in in that organization. And so of course I was anxious, I was always anxious, and um, so I never joined the church. But going into my teens I was accosted all the time by people you you know, asking when I'm going to be a good Christian or whatever, and I used to have nightmares about dying and stuff all the time, and I didn't realize they were nightmares because they called them that's God calling you right. Those are nightmares, man. And I didn't know, know, I didn't realize that until a psychologist told me that when I was 30 or 40 years old she's like that's nightmares from religious abuse that has nothing to do with god, like man, like that's crazy.
Speaker 5:I, I've become spiritual over the years yeah like I believe in the universe or whatever yeah and it's all about love and calm and peace.
Speaker 5:It has nothing. There's no fear, right? So, um, I wanted to go, oh yeah. So when I was 42 years old, I was walking through a store here in town and I saw a guy that's about 10 or 15 years older than me, that's from that church, and my like, I didn't even think, I just ducked and hid. And then I'm hiding behind the shelf and I'm like, why am I doing this? Like what's going on here? Like I didn't even think and I realized that my body was so scared from all those years of being accosted, that of religious abuse, that I just it just like instinctively, I hid. And so then, you know, I realized there was another, yeah, I realized there was another layer of trauma that I had to deal with. Like it's crazy. And then I never had to go through this.
Speaker 5:But when you know so, kids, when they're starting to be young, they're feeling the pressure to know join the church and so, and then their friends are joining the church, and so if you're baptized, like at 15, that's probably pretty late, like they want. You baptized a lot before, a lot sooner, and then so you have to be screened, kind of to be baptized to make sure you're a good Christian or whatever. That's what they say. I believe it's more grooming because you sit in front of a panel of preachers and they ask you a bunch of questions and they always, from what I've been told, they always veer off into sexual questions. From what I've been told, they always veer off into sexual questions and they ask like 12-year-old kids about masturbation and stuff like that, and most of the kids don't even know what that is. They've never even heard the word. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Right, but it's a good way for them to groom potential victims. Now they know right. If you've got some sexual predators that are are preachers, now they know exactly who the best victims are right yeah yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 3:That's sick jesus christ man. So I have a question for you, laverne.
Speaker 2:Um, like when you were, like involved with the cult, like what was your perception? Like I know they tried to instill like the fear in you of like the outside world. But like growing up in that, like what was your perception of what I would consider the normal world and probably what you consider the world to be normal now?
Speaker 5:nice question so I didn't know any different, right, but at this, so I didn't know any different, right but at this, so I didn't know any different. Because they you're fed all this bullshit Like, um, it's so ridiculous. Like you get a better education because our class sizes are smaller. Yeah, my teacher has grade nine education herself, right, how the fuck am I getting a better education? Right, so that's one, but I believe that I believed that for a long time, um, but I you know as much as I didn't know any different.
Speaker 5:I didn't like it you know, and so I always wanted to go live in the city. Um, I had some cousins that lived in the city. I thought being in the city would be the best thing. I had a very abusive mom and you know we can get into that later maybe, but when I was five years old she was screaming at me one day and I have no idea what for, but I can remember walking across our farmyard, no-transcript, and I held true to that. Good for you.
Speaker 5:And I never did. And I started writing a book a couple years ago and in there I say I believe that my soul knew I wasn't meant to like waste away in a cult and that's how I made that decision so young, because that's unheard of in a situation like that right, that's unheard of in a situation like that right?
Speaker 3:So you said that you ran away when you were 16 years old. How was that like being on your own and just decided like fuck this shit.
Speaker 5:I'm out of here. So it was kind of running away, I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 5:So when I was 11, my parents moved across the country to Nova Scotia and they had just started a new church out there and my parents wanted to be a part of that, didn't do the research, you know.
Speaker 5:We had a nice farm here and then we were moving across the country to one of the poorest um provinces not a lot of work, and but I I believe that my dad wanted to be part of the leadership there and thought he had a better chance. Um, so I didn't like it there. I didn't have friends. It was very small, very clicky and so, and so when I was 14, I convinced my dad to come back, to let me come out to Alberta and live with my uncle, who had a farm, and then I could be with my friends that I grew up with, and so he allowed me to do that. I stayed with them for a year while I did my grade nine education and then, of course, I graduated per se and then I had to go find a real job. So I was working for a farmer, another farmer from the church, and then my older brother moved out and he had been kicked out of the church by that time, actually for something I did, but he wanted out.
Speaker 5:So he just told him that he did it yeah, I, uh, I had sworn at some neighbor kids, uh, from a vehicle and like no idea why I I don't remember that part but somebody, it somehow got back to the preachers and they said, oh, you did this. And he's like, yeah, I did.
Speaker 5:And so he, they kicked him out for yeah, he, he took it, yeah anyway. So he got kicked out, he moved out and he was work, had a job, and then he had his uh, rented a place there, and so one day I just, you know, like I always knew I was gonna leave, I just didn't know when or how, and you know, with typical 16 year old maturity, I just waited till everybody at my uncle's house was gone one day and packed all my stuff and moved in with him and you know I really like I'd live like my whole family life had been dysfunctional until I lived with them, um, but they were still part of the cult, right, and I wanted out.
Speaker 5:I've. You know I've connected with a few of them over the years and stuff, but I I know it was pretty hard for them just to like come home and I wasn't there. I'd left them a note, right. But you know what you make decisions with the mindset that you have at that moment, right.
Speaker 3:So yeah um, I mean I think it was a great decision that you made to leave yeah definitely definitely yeah, it was it.
Speaker 5:It like it. It would have just got really, really ugly if I said I want to leave, right yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Do you think your parents would lock you up?
Speaker 5:No, because I was 16 and you know I do that. But I was lucky. The guy I was working for was a more moderate member of their church, so he didn't drink all the Kool-Aid at least as much and he actually sold me one of his trucks and you know he helped me out and I still see him around to this day and I have a relationship with him and his wife and you know they're in their 80s by now, right, but yeah, so that's that's how that happened. I stayed in the community for about a I don't know, maybe just under a year, and then I moved to actually Calgary. I had an aunt that never was part of that church and so I moved in with her and I started my life away, like completely away. Good for you, man, and yeah, had to, you know, go out and get an education and find some real work and stuff like that, right, but it was good.
Speaker 1:I got a question for you. Yeah. I know you mentioned you know in this cult upbringing that you came from, obviously there was a lot of the sexual abuse. Now I know we see a lot of things on tv and like down in the states and maybe it's a little different. But um, what about like was there besides the abuse, like underage marriages where the girls were forced to marry young, or the pastors have multiple wives?
Speaker 5:uh, no, that's a great question though. So, um, the youngest, I don't. I don't think I've ever heard of one under legal age. Um, I think they've, I think they've happened, but I I wouldn't say that no, they're um, but they're only allowed one husband or one wife, one uh partner. But the way they do it is is kind of crazy. Um, so there's no dating at all and they travel all the the youth.
Speaker 5:So once you're like 16, 17, you start traveling around to weddings and other places and that's how you meet new people.
Speaker 5:And then you know they, oh, like, this person seems nice, so they might go back and visit that church again and they might get a couple visits in it. Like, yeah, yeah, you know, I think I want to marry that person, right? So then the boy has to go to his dad and say, hey, dad, I want to get married. And then dad, you know, agrees or disagrees. Then they go to the preacher and the preacher says you know, the preacher can disagree or agree. And then the preacher goes to the preacher from that other church and says, hey, I have a guy over here wants to marry someone over here. So then that preacher takes it to the girl's dad, who can also agree or disagree, and then takes it to the girl and then you know, word comes back whether it's a yes or no, and there's a lot of control in there, like a of people, so everyone does exactly what the preacher tells them if they want to get married he is.
Speaker 1:The law is what it is yeah and then sorry, and everyone out there right now is complaining about the dating world and you have to do and how hard it is to date. But yet you gotta get permission from eight people and then yeah, your preacher not even your parents have the final say yeah holy smokes man yeah that just gives you a whole new outlook on dating. I'm like this shit's easy yeah yeah, yeah, why even bother, right?
Speaker 5:yeah, that's crazy. Once they do like so, once then the girl says yes, let's say then that's they're engaged, and then the wedding has to happen within like three months. It oh, so that's fast oh yeah, it happens very, very fast and, like I, I can't say this for certain, but I, I believe that the kids are getting married just to have sex yeah so they just didn't get lucky right like yeah you know, um because you got to be married before that in order to okay yeah I understand that that's, that's.
Speaker 3:yeah, so that's, that's that's messed up though.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so that's the world I grew up in. I've heard that it's gotten a lot slacker over the years.
Speaker 3:A little bit more modernized.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and they have to, because everybody has a phone. Now Everybody can search stuff and be like man. This is bullshit. I'm out, right, so yeah they have to, they have to ease up a lot of the rules, but I really don't know, because I don't. I don't talk to anybody and ask them about it, right?
Speaker 3:so that's crazy so what about let's get into now how this is like, affected you, like, throughout your, your terms of life and your your path, that you went on yeah for sure.
Speaker 5:So part of it, a big part of it, was how abusive my mom was to me. That really affected me, that you know prominent feminine figure in my life, very abusive. I used to get very severe physical punishments for things I didn't do, for things that my siblings were never punished for, and sometimes I even got punished for stuff they did. Just somebody had to be punished, so it was me right.
Speaker 3:Like a punching bag almost.
Speaker 5:Yeah yeah. And you know, a very typical and it took me until I was in my 40s to realize this typical and it took me until I was in my 40s to realize this, but a very typical, like, I guess, narcissistic style relationship with an empath child right, like everything I did angered her and uh.
Speaker 5:So I had a very, very um I don't know how to describe like just a bad view of women in general, and the church I grew up in was misogynistic as well. So I always thought women were just there to get what they could at EU and run. So I always ran first, right, like I couldn't commit to anything, I always bailed on everything. But I also wanted to be a people pleaser right, because not knowing that that was a thing, necessarily, but I was always trying to please people and help people and I wanted to help people.
Speaker 5:And actually when I was really young like probably five, six, maybe seven, um, a police car went by our gravel road or by our farm on the gravel road and we never saw the police out there and he was going lights and sirens and I was terrified. I ran in the house and scared and my mom told me she's like, don't be scared, he's going to help someone. And I'm like, oh, I want to be a police officer. And she's like, oh, I want to be a police officer. And she's like, oh, you can't be a police officer. Why can't I be a police officer? He's you said he's going to go help people and you know, that's when I found out about, that's when I found out about. They have this doctrine or rule of it's called non-resistance, right, so you can't do anything to resist. I guess, like you know, hurt other people and I personally feel they have that like totally confused with. So, like for the buddhists, they believe you're like you don't resist, you just go with the flow, basically right yeah, and.
Speaker 5:I think that's what it should be. It has nothing to do with carrying a gun or anything. So I actually, since I was that young, I knew what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to go in law enforcement, but I told everyone I wanted to be a paramedic because I knew I had to hide my true intentions. So I lived a lie my whole life.
Speaker 5:Um, so when I moved to the big city I ended up I knew I wanted to help people and so I went and got a job working as hospital security. And even though I knew I wanted to go in law enforcement, I had almost convinced myself that I wanted to be a paramedic because I'd said it so many times. So I decided working in a hospital would probably be a good idea, or a good place for me to figure out what I wanted to do, and I decided pretty quick I didn't want to be anything to do with health care. I didn't want people's lives in my hands, basically. And so, yeah, I worked for a career in law enforcement. When I was 27, I got on uh with the alberta sheriffs and I I got on the highway patrol unit and the first thing I did was I joined a volunteer fire department and I started burning my candle at both ends and I didn't realize that's what I was doing.
Speaker 5:I just thought I was helping people and I loved it. But the the deepest part of that was is I was I was getting my worth from how much I could help people and, um, I often wonder if I would have chosen the same career if I wasn't such a people pleaser. So I did that. I met my now ex-wife when I was doing that and about seven years in I started to burn out and I had a bunch of other reasons for it, and none of which were probably accurate. And I had a friend of mine call me one day and he said hey, come work in the oil field, and you know, you make this much money as a contractor. And I'm like Holy smokes.
Speaker 5:So I went and did that. I was flying up to Northern Alberta or sorry, northern BC, to northern Alberta, or sorry, northern BC and I was enjoying it. But then we got pregnant with our first child and as soon as daddy's little girl came along, I didn't want anything to do with not being away or being away from home, and so I I only did it for two and a half years and then I came back to. I came, I found another job in law enforcement and, uh, started working, started being home every night, you know, thought I was living the dream, you know, had the new house in a nice neighborhood, you know, married with kids, um, good job, and yeah.
Speaker 3:Then everything went to shit but with that it comes a lot of stress too.
Speaker 5:It just went to shit yeah, it took a while, but um, yeah, it was. It was all my childhood conditioning that kind of um led up to it it's. I was in very emotionally unhealthy relationships with everyone everywhere. I always gave too much of myself. Um, and you know, being a young, a young parent or a parent of young kids, I was.
Speaker 5:I was doing everything I could to be a good dad, good good husband Um and then I'd go to work and I was trying to prove everything at work and just to be the best I could be. I was told often that I was a leader, so then again, I would put so much more pressure on myself. In March 2017, I was involved. I was actually St Paddy's Day night, I was working a night shift and I was involved in a like a nothing traffic stop with a very um, yeah, oh man I can't think of the word probably the most irrational person I've ever dealt with, but not um, like it was nothing but my mental health, like I was, I was running at capacity anyway and then, uh, he posted pictures of me on facebook, you know, filled the comments with failed threats and but the worst part about what that was is I knew where he lived and he lived right around the corner from me and I actually had to walk past. If I was taking my kids to the park, I'd have to walk past his house, and so the anxiety that I was living with my whole life just kicked into overdrive and I was scared I would meet this guy while I was out with my kids, and the big, almost the biggest fear was was that I would meet him and I wouldn't be able to do anything because I'd be holding my boy, who was less than a year old at the time, and I would have to run. And I didn't want to run, I wanted to be able to, like, stand my ground, and so I, you know, that kind of bothered me for a while. A week afterwards I saw him again and he never saw me and I was in my patrol vehicle and I saw him and I had my first ever anxiety attack, and I never experienced one before. But you know, I just did whatever I'd always done. I let time, you know, heal the wound, or so I thought.
Speaker 5:And then, about two months, two months later, I was assigned a task at work that I just didn't feel I was capable of. But they told me that I was the only person that was able to do it, and so I put a lot of pressure on myself, uh, over the summer months, while I was trying to do it work on it, um, my management team was never around, or at least that's how I felt, and my abandonment wound started to resurface from when I was nine years old and I started getting irritable, and then I would get angry, and then I would. I would read an email from work and I would just lose it, I would fly off the handle. I'd you know experience rage, literally seeing red over an email. And so it took it took my ex probably about two months to convince me to go see a therapist.
Speaker 5:But that's how stigmatized mental health was, was I thought I had to be this strong guy. I was told I was a leader. So I thought my or I thought the you know ideal leader was strong and silent and didn't speak. You know, didn't admit that he was broken. So it took over two months for, and finally I went to see a therapist and I walked in the door and within five minutes she's like dude, you got to take time off of work, like you got to get out of that place. And so I did. I went to my doctor. I told him what she had said and he's like how much time do you want? And I'm like, I don't know, like you're the doctor, I don't know how long this takes. So I picked three weeks, because it was just before a course that I was supposed to take and I really wanted the course, and so I came back.
Speaker 5:I didn't feel any different. One of the first things I did was yell at a supervisor, you know, accused of insubordination, which should have been a red flag for everybody, including myself, and I just went back to work and nothing changed and I just, I still kept trying to do all I could do and um that, because that's all I knew. How right, nobody talked about it, nobody asked me if I was okay, and then, uh, I was back at work for about two months. They shuffled everybody around, made some new teams and the shift that I was on was left with the supervisor. And my management came to me and they said, hey, we're not going to promote anybody or fill that spot, but you're the de facto leader anyway. Like putting way more pressure on myself again to just prove to everybody that.
Speaker 3:I was worthy and I began to burn out and same pay.
Speaker 5:So here in Alberta, um, the Alberta government has what's called the uh selective traffic enforcement program and basically it's just a guide for law enforcement agencies to focus their efforts each month, and for February it was distracted driving, and so I had seen a lot of the consequences of distracted driving. So I rallied my shift, or the shift that I was on. I said, hey, let's see how much we can do this month, like any spare time, let's do some enforcement on this. And about halfway through the month, like so, no downtime, right, like always pushing myself super hard, no downtime. And I I felt that something was off about halfway through the month and I didn't know what it was and it's hard to describe. Like I just I felt it felt weird, I just felt off. Like I just I felt it felt weird, I just felt off and I felt that everyone was really abrasive. And so I just started looking. I set my sights to March 1st and I'm like I just want to make it to the end of the month.
Speaker 5:And when March 1st came around, I was done. I had nothing left. There was like I had no energy, I was apathetic. All I would do is I started driving around all day drinking coffee. I would just sit in parking lots for hours and not do anything. I just I was. I was almost listless. Like I would drink my coffee, I'd watch vehicles, I would just nothing, and nobody said anything.
Speaker 5:And about you know, soon it got to the point where I couldn't sleep before work. I was taken up to five times the recommended dose of a sleep aid. I'd get maybe an hour and a half to two hours of sleep and then I would wake up and I would stay awake all night or I'd fall asleep. You know, at some point in the night for an hour and a half or two hours I felt like my world was starting to close in around me.
Speaker 5:I didn't realize it, but I was going into a major depressive episode. I began all I would do is ruminate on how horrible my life was and I began to see no way out and I was too scared. So I began to have suicidal thoughts, but I was too scared to to say anything about it because then I would be broken. Then, because there was. So I was so uneducated about mental health I didn't realize that there's so many, I guess, steps in a, in a like, a suicidal, like journey right, like just thinking about it and thinking how horrible your life is doesn't mean that I'm going to get locked up in a psych unit somewhere, but that's what there's.
Speaker 2:A big difference between ideations and attempts, right, yeah yes, yeah and so.
Speaker 5:But like that's where I was at, and in my career I've worked with a lot of people that were in peer support and had always said you know, if you're ever suffering anything's going on, just reach out. You know, I'm there, we're whatever. And the closest I ever came was I started typing a text at three in the morning and then stigma just overpowered me and I deleted it. I, uh, I was too scared and in hindsight I know that guy would have helped me. That guy would have probably phoned me in the middle of the night and just talked to me for hours. I know he would have, but you know when your mind is in the in the gutter. And I, what I didn't realize is I I had experienced a, an injury, and so I was listening to my injured mind and so I got um.
Speaker 5:But the only thing that that saved me in that time was during that time, when I was struggling, my then three-year-old daughter, who had been sleeping in her bed, started waking up every night and crawling in with me. And so every night, while I was laying there ruminating on how horrible my life was and planning my own demise, like walking myself through it, I like I knew exactly what was gonna happen. I did it many times in my mind. She would crawl in beside me and I would feel her and I would listen to her heart, her breathing, and I knew I had to find a way on their way out of it.
Speaker 5:But I didn't know how, and so, in pure desperation, I went to the one person in my life that I thought would help me and could help me. It took me so much power to get there and my message wasn't received and I blamed myself for not being articulate and telling them how bad it was. And a couple nights later, I'm like no, I feel like I'm at rock bottom. I went back to that person and I said I made it very no, like this is you know, I feel like I'm at rock bottom. I went back to that person and I said like I made it very clear where I was at, and they looked me in the eye and they said I know, and then they walked out of the room and that was the last time we talked about it Really. And like.
Speaker 5:I don't wish that on anybody.
Speaker 5:That's just the most. That despair is just the worst that I've ever felt. I didn't know what I was going to do, I didn't know how I was going to do it. I just, every day, I told myself during the night, I told myself that during the day it would get better. It didn't. During the night I couldn't sleep, I thought about it, but every night she was there beside me and you know, powering me. On A few months of that, I ran into a firefighter.
Speaker 5:After a few months of that, I ran into a firefighter. I knew months of that. I ran into a firefighter. I knew and we had a good shot and it's that thing that joey was talking about earlier. You smile at someone. You don't know how, what the impact will be. He talked to me for a couple hours and we just chatted and for the first time in over a year I felt like I had there, there was, some hope, that there was a possibility that I would be okay.
Speaker 5:A couple months after that I managed to. An agency near me was hiring and I managed to somehow convince them in my mind, somehow convince them that I wasn't broken, and I don't know how I think it shows, like, how high functioning we can be when we're still suffering so bad. Um, I thought everything would be better. I thought everything would change. Um, I was under less stress, but I felt off. I still felt off and um, but I just I kept pushing through because I didn't know any better and I had been seeing that therapist, uh, once a month, ever since I went to see her way back in like november, and you know, almost a year had passed and I would see her every month. But because I was lying to myself and self-stigmatizing what I was going through, there's no way she could help me, right? And I think a good therapist might have.
Speaker 2:Would you say you were kind of filtering the information that you were giving to that therapist because of what your conception of what valuable information was Like? Yes, to you like something didn't seem important so you didn't bring it up, but probably in reality, there's probably something super important to bring up yes, it partially that, but what it was was.
Speaker 5:I was too scared to tell her the truth, and that's why we do this man, because it is super important and yeah, yeah, and I just wanted to, and that's the thing too is you know we talk about it all the time on our show is you know, because it is super important and yeah, yeah, I just wanted to, and that's the thing too is, you know, we talk about it all the time on our show is, you know, uh, the accountability.
Speaker 1:But in that is being truthful to yourself, right. And when you're lying to yourself, just like most people do, because they don't want to admit they got problems, they don't want to admit they're overweight, they don't want to admit that they were abused as a child, they're embarrassed, all these things. But until you're able to look at yourself and face it and be like this did happen. I have issues, I need help, and be completely open and honest about that. You will never change and you will never get better because you're hiding parts of you when you really need to be honest, right.
Speaker 1:And if you can't be honest with yourself, then how about what's going on, especially to a therapist? And you're holding things back and you're not bringing things up. Well, how can you expect them anybody to help you?
Speaker 1:Yeah they can't. They're only going on the information that you're giving them. Yeah, they can't, they're only going on the information that you're giving them. But if you're feeding them bullshit or you're dancing around, what you know is the problem, and that's what most people do, because they get nervous, they're embarrassed, they don't want to tell it all, but they'll mention a little bit. Well, the little bit that you give is the only little bit of help you're going to get back. It's just like anything in life, right, you get what you put in. You give 100% in the gym. You're going to get 100% results.
Speaker 1:You go to the therapist and you only give 20% of your problems, you're only going to get 20% help. And from another thing too is us, and that's again why we do the show as, as you know, the, the men especially that struggle every day. You know, and as you know, and every other guy listening um is we always talk about. You know, we, every morning, we wake up, we go to work and we're carrying this backpack full of bricks, and it's because we have to pay the rent. We, we got to take care of our kids, we got to make sure our wife is happy and take care of the bills and so on and so on.
Speaker 1:Now, being in your situation as a police officer, you know I can't imagine you know, having that extra. Just like you said, you were a leader, right, Because you look at a police officer like you were and you're now, you know, in a position to protect people and that's your job is to keep people safe and lead people, and by example, because on a police officer, like the spotlight is on you like me, you know I I run, I'm in charge of big cranes, but there's nobody.
Speaker 1:Spotlight is not on my head. They're looking at the police officers, the lawyers, the judges, the you know all these, you know figures in the positions that you guys are in. So this really shows, too, is not only do you have the day-to-day you know weight that you carry as a man, but you're carrying, you know you're tripling that weight because you're a police officer. Yeah, right, so it makes it a lot more harder on yourself. You're even, you're not only worried about your home life, but you're worried about the people on the street, the people you encounter.
Speaker 1:Like you said earlier about the guy that was, you know, out of control and he lived around the corner from me, right, and that's added, you know, because of the career that you were in, that's a lot of extra stress, a lot of extra weight. And you know, like you said earlier in the show and I was this way as well for years was a people pleaser, right, you always bought. You didn't want you want to make sure everybody liked you. You would help anybody. You didn't want you want to make sure everybody liked you. You would help anybody, you know. And then, when I went to my counseling and my therapy to fix all my traumas, that where I came from is. You know you do that because you think that it's making you feel better about the problems that you have, right by helping somebody else.
Speaker 1:And even in and even in my relationships that I was in and my brother-in-law said it to me once and it stuck with me he's like you're an emotional paramedic Because all you do is try to fix people and you attract the damaged girls and the damaged people and you're always trying to help and fix and fix and I'm like you're an emotional paramedic. But this whole time I'm trying to push people to be better and do this Well, right at the same time is I am so broken inside and I can't even barely keep my head up and help myself. But I felt better by trying to help you. Yeah, right, and I can give you the best advice on the planet, better than any therapist. But it was a lot of. It was advice that I couldn't even take for myself because I didn't know how.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I was struggling.
Speaker 1:So when you you know, being the police officer, that you were man, I couldn't imagine that extra weight that you carried every day in that role on top of you know, and this you know, for anyone listening to it it's a prime example.
Speaker 1:Because when you look at certain um occupations that people do, like I said, the lawyers, the judge, the you don't really see mental health problems from them in in that field. You would think they have a great job, you think they're all happy, you think you know, does that make sense? And then you think they got police officers that are, you know, doing their job. They're saving people, they're happy, they're good. But man, like you're a prime example like you are a police officer playing in your mind how and when you can kill yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I was actually gonna ask you that I was gonna ask you that when you were saying that, laverne, like with the people pleasing because I can relate that to that too but did you, did you find that being the police officer, being the hero helping people, was the, the external validation that you felt that you needed, without unknowingly adding those bricks that joey was talking about to your backpack? Is that kind of what it was, where you were burning the candle at both ends but these people are saying how helpful you are, or you're getting compliments about being a leader, so like that's just what you focus on, and completely ignored what you were like throwing over your shoulder, like on the way, just like lowering up the backpack, yeah, and.
Speaker 5:I thought I dealt with stress really good right, because I was always calm and cool really good right Because I was always calm and cool and somebody you know. I've since learned that a lot of kids that have traumatic childhoods are very calm under pressure because they're used to it, and an interesting part to it is apparently we seek it out because that's normal like seek out the the the shit
Speaker 5:yeah the shit show careers right, yeah, yeah because that's normal for us and I I thrived off it, I you know. It's interesting, though, because since I've healed, I've become let or, you know, I've started my healing journey.
Speaker 5:I guess I don't know that we finish, but I've become less of an adrenaline junkie. I don't need that, and so I think there's something to that right, because I used to be the adrenaline junkie, I used to love it, yeah, and yeah, I thought I dealt with stress really good and really I told some really horrific dark humor jokes to get a laugh or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, I was getting validation from it. But at the same point especially working in law enforcement, when somebody's yelling at you too, that really hurt me, like I. I wasn't one of those people that could let it run off my back yeah because um I was such a well, yeah, and I was such a people pleaser.
Speaker 5:Like oh my God, this person doesn't like me, so it was a really weird career for me to be in.
Speaker 2:I was just about to say that's a bold career choice for a people pleaser, yeah.
Speaker 5:But yeah, like, and not only and I I realized this later, but not only was it the stigma of mental health and how I'd be perceived as weak or broken or whatever it it had never been safe for me to speak my truth, right?
Speaker 5:so with my family growing up within a cult like you speak your truth. Anything that's out of the norm like holy shit, you're banished, right. And you know that's basic instinct, like, if you're banished from the tribe 500 years ago, you're dying, right. And so I think there was a big part of that as well. That I just you know I couldn't speak my truth, I didn't know how.
Speaker 3:That I just you know I couldn't speak my truth, I didn't know how Were they ghanish like little little kids Like to that point, like if they did something wrong, are they that like?
Speaker 5:No, but you could. You could easily. You're ostracized though, right Like so. You know, other kids at school don't want to hang out with you because you're a bad boy, right.
Speaker 3:And they don't want to be compared into that, because the church will look at them as well, because you are who you hang out with.
Speaker 5:They say yeah, my friend. So that never happened to me, at least to that degree. But my friend that was taped to the desk that I talked about, he was, yeah, he. I don't believe he had many friends right, because he uh, nobody's parents would let you go play with him talk about fucking a kid up.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. Even that, like you know, like well, that's how they get you just innocent childs. Man yeah yeah but it's like an innocent child. You're pure. You don't know wrong or right. Man, as adults, we have to teach our children yeah.
Speaker 5:That's what they're teaching them. Just blend in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like Anthony said, that's right. That's how they teach you. It's a brainwash almost right, If they can get you young, then they've got you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I don't believe, like, don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's plenty of people who who have made it out, but honestly, laverne, like I mean this from the bottom of my heart I I don't believe there would be very many people who who've come out of that thing that you were in and be able to sit here and do exactly what you're doing right now, like that's, that's to me, man, that's a, that's a fucking superpower. So, like, I applaud you for that, just in in and of itself, so just one of the many things that you've said that I could applaud you for so far. Yeah, man, this is amazing. So what, what did you find?
Speaker 2:Or like, what are you finding to be your best tools and the way for you to accumulate the most growth along this journey? Because we all agree, man, there's no cure for this thing To me. I just look at it the same as physical health. It's something you got to take care of every day, right? So, with mental health, I don't think there's a cure. It's just a fucking journey that's a part of the one that we're living every day, right? So what would you say are, like, your best tools that you've learned to accumulate the most growth over the past few years per se oh man, there's so many, though.
Speaker 5:Right like um, there's somebody asked me the other day because I did a. I talk about mental health publicly and I did a speech and like just 15 minutes even so, you know kind of just touched on my story and she approached me afterwards and she's like how did you heal? And I'm like I don't know how to answer that because it's like all over the map. Right. Like it's not linear yeah.
Speaker 3:There's no real trail to follow.
Speaker 5:Yeah, for me there's no tricks to it. No no. Hard work.
Speaker 5:Well, I don't know. I look back at how far I've come, though. Like cause I finally went to a therapist or a psychologist in 2019. And there's so many key aspects like cause I finally went to a therapist or a psychologist in 2019. And there's so many key aspects, like one of the things I want to talk about too, and it kind of touches what Joey was saying earlier. When I first went to my psychologist I my appointment was for an hour and I sat and cried in her office for an hour and a half, and immediately after that I was able to start sleeping. All.
Speaker 5:I need. All I needed was someone to hold space for me. Yeah. That's it. That's like I. I sorry, I needed a lot more than that it had the train had derailed Right.
Speaker 5:But you know, just holding space for somebody is important.
Speaker 5:About six months after I'd been in therapy, it was starting to become apparent that maybe there was something going on right to the outside world. And I went to court one day and there was a retired police officer there that I, you know, I encountered a few times like acquaintances, not friends, who, and as soon as he saw me he left the group he was in and he came over to see me and he said, laverne, let's go talk. And so he took me in the side room and he said what's up? And I said, what do you mean? And I knew what he meant, but I, you know, I was still stigmatizing it then and he said listen, dude, I have PTSD, I know something's going on. And then he told me his story and why he had to leave law enforcement and how he had PTSD. And just knowing that someone had come, sought me out to help me, could see something was going on, because they had gone down that same path themselves. That's when I truly, truly knew that I was going to be okay. Wow.
Speaker 5:And so it's so important. You know, that smile on the street, um, saying hi to somebody, whatever, right? Um, one of the biggest moments I had in therapy that you know really changed me was we did EMDR therapy and I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's eye movement, desensitization, reprogramming, right. And so she asked me what was bothering me the most at that time. And so she asked me what was bothering me the most at that time. I told her she asked me to feel that sensation in my body, how it felt, and then she asked me to go back and remember the first time I'd ever felt that sensation.
Speaker 5:And the first time I remember feeling that sensation was the time that I was about to be sexually assaulted the second time, and I was actually walking up some stairs and I was looking back down at my parents and I'm like they're sitting at a table. I'm like you guys know what's going to fucking happen here. Like say something, like stop me from going up the stairs. And they didn't, and they didn't even look up, and you know what happened, happened. But you know, I felt that icy, cold fear throughout my whole body. While I was sitting in therapy I could feel it. So we did this session. You know, honestly, I don't remember a lot about it. I know I was following some dots on the screen. Um, I cried a lot like I. I really released a lot of that emotion good for you.
Speaker 5:And at the end of that session she asked me she's like, tell me something good that happened from that, and the answer was on the tip of my tongue. I said I'm a good dad, I'm a better dad because of it. Yeah, and so the ability to find that gratitude for the worst thing that ever happened to me was it was life changing. That ever happened to me was, um, it was life-changing because if and you know like it's a stretch to find gratitude for something like that, but you know, being able to reframe that in my mind, man, I can find gratitude for anything that comes my way today or tomorrow or the next day, right?
Speaker 5:so that was life-changing um can I, can I just?
Speaker 3:just I just want to applaud you, man. For you, you have broke generational trauma and you broke the chain so I just I just want to just congratulate you on that. That. I'm getting all emotional. That's amazing man. I applaud you for that. It's hard, it really is.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you a real quick question, laverne? I'm going to rewind just a little bit, and the reason why I ask is when you said that you went to your therapist and you had an hour session and you cried for an hour and a half and then after that, all of a sudden you were sleeping better. Now, before that session, that day, when you released that and you let that out, how long do you think you were holding that in where you needed to cry like that?
Speaker 5:Honestly, I'm going to just do some math in my head here.
Speaker 1:Uh, about 30 years right and the re, the re, yeah, and the reason why I asked that is because this is something that we always you know, when you feel you heal and when yeah, you know, especially as a man who holds when.
Speaker 1:You know, especially as a man who holds this pain in every day. And, like most of us, we bury our problems, we bury our traumas, just like you said earlier, when you're in. You know, as a police officer, you know you thought you handled stress well when you realized later that you didn't. And we think that we handle life well because we bury all our shit when it slowly builds up and builds up and, like in my case, it blew up in my face, where, you know, I couldn't leave my bedroom for five days because I was so fucked up and and you know what I mean. So you know, for the people, listening is more. Why I asked this question is when you went there that day and you released that all of a sudden you're sleeping better because you were able to release those emotions. Right and especially, like I said, as men we hold that in. But if your body wants you to cry, man you to. That's the only way to get through it and to let things go is to feel through it.
Speaker 1:And you have to, and you can't be embarrassed about that. You can't feel like you're less of a man because your body is telling you that you want to break down, because you're struggling, and even over a girl, especially over a girl. I'm going to cry over this. But if you're actually heartbroken because you love somebody and you're hurting, you have to go through that emotion. Your body's saying you've got to let it out. That's when you bury it, and bury it it drags it out farther and farther away from you, even healing.
Speaker 2:It seeps into all aspects of your life too. It won't stay where it is. It'll go fucking everywhere.
Speaker 1:Then it rolls into your next relationship and that's why all our relationships fail. That's why you lose friends. That's why you're losing your jobs. Because, you're slowly, it's slowly chiseling at you and you're literally deteriorating and just starting to fade away.
Speaker 3:It's like the avengers like a like a hologram one buddy snapped his finger yeah, you start and pieces of you are pixelating.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what it is an adventure. There's nothing. There's nothing left of you. Yeah, but I would you but go ahead go ahead.
Speaker 5:No, I was just gonna say I'd be willing to bet that you guys are all the same as me where it wasn't safe for you to cry as a kid.
Speaker 3:Definitely my dad used to tell me to man up You're depressed, get over it.
Speaker 2:Buddy, my best therapy session. I did the same thing. I trauma dumped on my poor therapist for an hour straight, cried for an hour straight. In the last five minutes I said I'm so sorry I didn't let you say a word and I just trauma dumped on you for an hour and she just put her hands up. She's like this is what you pay me for, like and and that's all I needed that day.
Speaker 1:Like literally she didn't have to say a word it's exactly what you said.
Speaker 2:She didn't have to say a fucking word, I just I for one, I didn't feel okay doing it alone. So even just having her there to do that was all I needed. Like it's, it's crazy how much power there is in just someone's presence and it's hard, it's hard going through. So my therapist is a woman. Um, I don't have, um, the exact same experiences you do in terms of, like the abuse and stuff with from women growing up, but I do have severe abandonment issues with women growing up because I was adopted from birth and learning a lot of stuff through therapy. There's like a trail of deceit from women, not not in a harmful way, but just all the way through my life. So I had a major resentment towards women. I felt like I couldn't trust them. I felt like they were never telling me the whole truth. So to be able to sit there with that woman and her not say a fucking word and just allow me that space was just like okay, maybe there is something to this, but to meet people on the same level that's that's what I'm really starting to.
Speaker 2:Honestly learn now is like sort of like you said with your the fellow police officer right, like pulling you aside, being like, hey, this is the shit that I dealt with. I know exactly what I'm looking at with you. It's it's it's meeting someone on the same level. You know, like the best way for someone to feel safe is is to meet them where they're at. So, like I'm in recovery, so I speak at at rehab facilities, like treatments with, like drug addicts who were smoking crack less than a week ago. And the easiest way for me to get on their level cause they see this sober guy, come in off the street, I come in, talk my shit and I get to leave Right. So the easiest way to meet them at their level is to go in there and talk about the fucked up shit that I used to do, that they've probably done.
Speaker 2:Go in there, hey man, I used to use drugs around my kids. Am I proud of that? Fuck no. But if, if this person's in there and they're terrified, I can meet them right here and make them realize that I'm just like them, that I'm just like them and that's that's the most powerful thing, especially as men. Man, I find like being vulnerable enough to meet someone on that level. There's so much power in that. And the other thing I wanted to say is the the changing the perspective on, on the situation that haunted you the most in life. The minute you change it and look at gratitude, you take away all that fucking power that that situation and all that control that situation had over you your whole life. Man, there's so much, there's so much power like this whole fucking episode's been fucking mind-blowing.
Speaker 3:But yeah, man like you know, yeah, like well, and somebody like you said too, like you said too, though, like, um, just having someone there, and it's so true. When my fiance passed away, joey would come over and he would just sit beside me, wouldn't say a word, and that's all I needed. You know, I just needed a friend to be there, and he we maybe said what a couple words, right, joyce, like once in a while, while you. But you were just there, you know, and every day after work he would come to my house to make sure, and I love you for that, brother, I do. You know that. I will never forget that. But I mean, of course, buddy, sometimes that's all we need is just someone to be there.
Speaker 5:You know, I I wanted to say that what anthony was saying about, you know, paying his therapist to to sit there and so he could cry. You know, in my dream world, men go to each other like anthony and or, sorry, joey and eric right, we hold that space for each other for free, right? I met a guy in a men's group here where I'm from, in Grand Prairie, and we've become friends and we talk about it a lot. You know I went into law enforcement. You know I had that career Eventually left because it's just too hard on my mental health, and he went and worked in the oil field and, you know, got addicted to drugs, became an addict. And then we both end up together in a men's group and our journeys. You know the saying by the grace of god, there go I, or whatever it is. Um, I went into law enforcement and he became an addict for the exact same reasons. Yeah, and it had the same effect on us. Essentially, right, yeah, except yeah like but two different times to meet again.
Speaker 5:That's crazy right and yeah, and we acknowledge that and we we also acknowledge that, had we met five or ten years ago, yeah you know, we would have been adversaries yeah right, but we, our journeys, like when we're parallel for the exact or, I guess, opposite for the exact same reason, yeah, but um, I wanted, like so, I wanted to share a story. Going through all of that made me so much more empathetic and empathic. And one night I, I, and it completely changed the way I worked.
Speaker 5:One night I was working in a rural area late at night. I stopped the vehicle for speeding and I walk up and there's this guy there where, doing my thing, whatever, he's looking for his documents. And I walk up and there's this guy there doing my thing, whatever, he's looking for his documents. And I just kind of sensed that, you know, he wasn't having a good night, right. And so I looked at him and I said, dude, pretend I'm not in uniform. Man to man, are you okay? And he wasn't, and he started crying and I just hung out there with him and he cried.
Speaker 5:He told me what his problems were. I couldn't relate. They were pretty big and you know, financial. I think he was a rancher or something and running behind on some huge payments. But all he needed was for somebody for him to feel safe, to let that emotion out. And you know, I got him some resources and phone numbers for resources and stuff.
Speaker 5:But, you know, just think if he could go hang out with his farmer buddies and sit and they could talk about it openly and, you know, release the emotion Like it'd be just so much healthier. And you know that farming community has a lot of has a high suicide rate, right yeah, it definitely does and and those guys are, you know, alone on their farms with all that pressure, and, yeah, it's one they're big bills too, right, that's a lot of money.
Speaker 3:That's over all that and they'll. They'll never own them the machinery. They just they're paying it until they die, pretty much yeah that's, yeah, it's not.
Speaker 5:Yeah, huge stress, right, bad crop year or something or exactly whatever, right, half the cows get sick. You know, yeah, it's crazy. And actually another story I wanted to share. When the nexus for me to get for to finally get help it was, I went to a collision. That was the first on scene, and as soon as I stepped out of my vehicle, a couple approached me. They had a couple young kids and as soon and the the two boys were crying. They weren't physically injured, but they were crying. And as soon as I saw them, I got a lump in my throat. I couldn't talk, my mind started racing and so I mumbled something out to them and I went to check on the rest of the collision and there were three vehicles in the collision and I didn't see the third vehicle until I was like right up to it, and so I must have been experiencing tunnel vision. I couldn't help anybody because I couldn't talk without like crying.
Speaker 5:There was a girl. I found a girl in the vehicle. She was crying and she was near my daughter's age and I couldn't help her and as a dad, you know, I just wanted to help her and I couldn't, and so I stood back and I just watched, tried to pretend I was busy, and the fire department got there and there was an acquaintance of mine on the fire department. I saw him and I was watching him and then and uh, he was. He was so professional at his job and so good and I was jealous of him, I was envious, I was like man that used to be me, like that's how I used to be, and so I knew I was broken, or that's what I believed. I believed I was broken, that's what led me to to go get therapy. Uh, seven months later he died from suicide.
Speaker 5:That firefighter died from suicide and you never know you never know and you don't know how fast it's going to hit right yeah and, and that's why we have to. It's so important for us to look out for each other. Definitely.
Speaker 5:And that's why I love what you guys are doing, because, as men who've experienced this, we have to lead it and show other men that it's okay, because the women will tell us or some of them will. Some of them are scared of or don't know what to do with men that talk openly about their emotions. I think a lot of women want and push for that, but men are so conditioned that we just clam up and then it just eats us alive.
Speaker 3:Well, that's why we're doing what we're doing. We're trying to show the world. I's why we're doing what we're doing. We're trying to, you know, show the world and try to I mean, we're in 13 different countries, so hopefully we're affecting some people. So whoever's listening out there, you know this is what we're doing. You know, trying to save lives and and help people and and tear down this stigma that you know we're allowed to have feelings, you know just because we're men doesn't mean that we're not allowed to have feelings.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean you're weak. It means that you're strong to have these feelings if you cry. That that's true strength, because you're actually releasing all this built-up shit that that you've been holding on to for years, like 30 years, like yourself, you know and that's amazing, and this is what we're trying to do here to pave that way and I just I just realized I never answered anthony's question about tools.
Speaker 5:Um, I so kind of quickly I guess I gotta. I realized what the time was. I gotta get my kids to bed soon yeah, no um, I meditate and I I resisted meditation a long time because I thought it was like woo woo.
Speaker 5:And I heard in lots of podcasts people are talking about oh, you gotta meditate and stuff and I so I didn't do that until my divorce, and then I started meditating and I would say affirmations to myself and you know, uh, if you've ever been through a divorce or a significant relationship breakdown um, there's a lot of emotions, and so one of the affirmations I said to myself was I am calm, peaceful and serene while I was doing breath work and man that changed my life overnight. Yeah, right, because my brain, my mind believed in it.
Speaker 5:I exercise regularly. That was probably the first thing I ever started doing and I noticed it, and if I didn't exercise for a day or two I felt off. So I exercise all the time, Whatever even if it's a walk around the neighborhood.
Speaker 5:I journal, something else my psychologist told me to do, and I resisted for a really long time and I actually so I first started seeing her in 2019, and she started telling me to journal right away, and I don't know why I resisted it for so long, but I didn't start journaling in earnest until early this year. So in January I had a relationship end and I was pretty heartbroken about it, and so I started journaling. And then I started almost duplicating the EMDR session I had, and by by that I mean I started tapping into my childhood pain and I would sit and cry in my journal, but I would release decades of emotions that my little you know little laverne, five-year-old laverne, hadn't been able to.
Speaker 5:You know, little Laverne, five-year-old Laverne hadn't been able to release in you know almost 40 years, and I found so. I found that so healing, and so even now, if I'm feeling emotional about something, I'll journal it out, I'll cry it out and I'll get rid of it you know, feel it and let it flow through me as fast as I can.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So that's for you, man, good for you again man I applaud you for breaking the chain and putting in all this work. You know you just, you're a product of what happens when, when you you break this chain and now look at you, man. So I appreciate you being here. I appreciate you for for breaking the chain, man, and I bet everybody else in your, in your life does too yeah and uh right before we wrap up.
Speaker 1:If you want to, you know, shout out where people can look you up. They can find you. I know you said you do a lot of speaking. Now like, hey, if you want to put it out there what you know, where are you on the social medias that people can follow you?
Speaker 5:Absolutely yeah, sorry, I want to touch on what Joe Eric said Breaking, breaking the cycle. I got two beautiful kids and they're worth breaking the cycle for. Yeah, it's fucking hard, man and I at some days it feels like it'd be easier just to I don't know ignore it, but um it's worth it but when, when you start breaking those cycles, you start healing other people too and like this is a huge, huge part of my story.
Speaker 5:My family's changed just because I've changed and I shouldn't say that like to a hundred percent, but a lot has changed. There's two parts. I want to talk about both of my parents. When I was 41 years old, if my mom would touch me, my body would shudder uncontrollably, like like I couldn't control it. I would shudder and you know the body keeps the score right.
Speaker 3:The body knows from the trauma and everything from before.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I couldn't let her touch me right and so I stayed clear. Uh, I was reading a book, listening to it on on audio book, and he did this. He talked about some this forgiveness exercise you could do, so I thought I would try it while I was driving. So I didn't do it like as the full extent as I could have. And a couple of weeks later I went to my parents to stop in for Christmas and my mom wanted to give me a hug and I thought you know what? I'll give it a try, right, why not? And I let her touch me for the first time in my life and my body didn't revolt against it.
Speaker 5:And so I went pretty deep with trying to forgive my mom because I, you know she doesn't necessarily deserve it, but I do, I deserve it, and now I can sit with my mom good for you I can sit with my mom and have a conversation with her, and she's the same person that, uh, perpetrated all that violence against me, um, as a kid and and you know, like I can't really talk about it because I would trigger a lot of people probably it was really violent stuff, um, but that's for me, right, that's for me yeah, that's, that's my piece, right?
Speaker 5:yeah, good for you um and then, about four months ago, I had noticed that my dad would ask me every so often. He'd he ask me do you believe you had childhood trauma? And especially after I left law enforcement, he asked me and I found myself making myself small and I would say well, we all have childhood trauma, everybody has it, all have childhood trauma, everybody has it and a mentor of mine told me she's like dude you got to tell your dad the truth.
Speaker 5:he's reflecting on his life. You got to tell him the truth and if you don't, you're gonna you're going to regret it. And so I typed him out a letter. It was about four and a half pages. I met him for coffee and hey, I want to read you something. And I read him that letter and I talked about how horrible my life was as a child. I talked about you know all the abuse and but I prefaced it with that I was coming from a place of love and forgiveness and I told him that I thought I was a cycle breaker and all that kind of thing. And when I finished reading him that letter, he said thank you for that, it's all true. And then then he told me he said listen, I wish I would have believed you more when you told me that you'd been sexually abused. My dad had been carrying around that guilt for I don't know what you know 36 years, and because I had been able to heal that, he was able to heal that.
Speaker 3:I just got goosebumps I know, that's powerful man yeah.
Speaker 5:So yeah, you know, it's not just the future generations that we heal. We heal the past too, right, crazy you're so true.
Speaker 3:You know what? I never put that in perspective, but like, when you just speak about it, it's so true, it really is. Wow. Put that in perspective, but when you just speak about it, it's so true, it really is Wow.
Speaker 2:Alright, so we'll sit here for 15 minutes while you want to go put the kids to bed and then we'll come back to this. Yeah, wow, man.
Speaker 3:Honestly, this is amazing. This is just crazy. I'm so proud of you, you man, I am so goddamn proud of you, man you are what this show was made for in my 100.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you are the type of people that we, we are looking for. You know, like you've been through it. You've been through it and you've been through I would probably say you've been through a lot more extreme stuff than some people would go through. But it's sort of like you said, if you can forgive the abuse that you went through, and then even Joey was making a joke about the relationship stuff, about how those relationships were designated, and then, like, even joey was making a joke about the relationship stuff, about how those relationships were designated, and then we're out here complaining about fucking tinder and and all these dating sites. So, like not to invalidate anybody else's experiences, but if you can do it, man, like this is what we're here to show other people, especially men and women, like you can fucking do it. You know, and you were talking earlier and I had this thought come into my head and it rings so true for me and I'm sure you can relate the only time that I ever got it, got what I wanted in my life in terms of validation and healing, was the moment that I asked for help. And the moment that I relate that to is to what you said was when you pulled that guy over for speeding. I literally almost fucking cried man, 48 hours before I went to treatment.
Speaker 2:Back in 2021, I was at this very house with my children's mother. At the time I was still with her, she had found me out for all my addiction and everything. And there was a domestic situation and a policeman showed up who wasn't supposed to be on the call. He was just driving by, so he was kind of trying to contain the situation until the actual officers were showing up and he he pulled me into the house to ask me what was going on while she was outside and I just fucking broke down and I I told him everything, like I told him nothing to do with her, nothing to do with the situation, but exactly where I was at, because I he had asked me. He's like what's going on? And for some reason I knew he wasn't asking me what was going on in the situation. He was asking what was going on with me and I owe that man my life simply because of the fact that that man gave me resources.
Speaker 2:Within six hours of that situation happening, I was in a hospital on suicide watch, after having an argument with a doctor, and I met with a crisis intervention counselor and, as a result of all that stuff, 24 hours after that I was in a treatment facility. If you would have asked me 24 hours, if you would have asked me two hours before that policeman showed up, if I would ever end up in a rehab, I would have laughed in your face and said you're fucking nuts, there's no reason for me, for me to be there. That man asked me if I was okay and as a result of that, I I'm here today and I actually need to find this guy because in recovery every year we get little coins they're called medallions and I want to find that officer and give him my one-year medallion because if it wasn't for him man like that this wouldn't be a thing. For me I wouldn't be a thing. My kids definitely wouldn't have a father. I can confidently say say that. But this is just like you, fuck man, like you are just like screaming living proof that, like when you do the work, it shows. And the best part about all of it, laverne, is, is you fucking backed it up with evidence in your life? You know what I mean. You didn't just come in here and shout well, this is what I do when I'm feeling this way. He said, this is what I did and this is what happened right after I did those things. These are the tools that I use and these are the outcomes of those tools, like the breath work being held by your mom.
Speaker 2:Like man, I don't even know how to say thank you, because thank you's not fucking it's not, it, man, it's not enough I know it's not enough like I know it's not enough. I've been just vibrating. I got to work in the morning, I know. And I'm fucking fired right up. I am literally like shooting electrodes or just been shooting through my body, man, like it's all Hands down the longest episode ever and I could sit here for another hour.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and the crazy thing is is I I could talk for another hour if I wasn't tired, because no, um, I'm sure we'll have you back.
Speaker 2:I'm sure that's yeah we.
Speaker 5:My life has had some crazy turns yeah, uh, anthony, though I just got to tell you it's really easy to figure out who that officer was, and by you tracking him down, it'll make a world of a difference for him, because that man understands and that man wanted to help you and you can say what you want. Whatever higher power is out there, put him in front of your house that day oh, buddy, I'm in recovery, I'm straight.
Speaker 2:Spirituality, higher power, that's, that's my shit. So, laverne, do you suggest that I call 911 right now and see if I can find them? Is that your best advice?
Speaker 5:if you do that, pretend you're drunk. You know, act slurred I can't do that, man. It's been almost fucking four years, dude yeah no um, just, yeah, you know, honestly, uh call the uh non-emergency line, or uh, I don't know where you live, for sure a lot of places have a compliments section on their website. Um, that's, that's a good news story and they'll figure out who that guy is yeah, yeah, for sure well back to what I was saying earlier, laverne.
Speaker 1:Let people know where they can reach you and where to find you on this on this podcast, uh, uh, yeah.
Speaker 5:So facebook is laverne freezing. That's probably my most used one. I have a website it's true, emotionca. I do some coaching. I like the public speaking the best because you can help more people at once. Yeah, and I've had so many people reach out to me and tell me how much my story has changed. You know, help them them. I love that.
Speaker 3:I'm on TikTok, you guys tag me.
Speaker 5:I think it's at True Emotion, dad or Coach.
Speaker 3:What we'll do actually is if you want to send me over all your socials, I'll put it in our description at the bottom there, so everybody can get at you and we can change more lives, man.
Speaker 5:Awesome, Anthony. Thanks for having me Take it home.
Speaker 3:Thank you, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I said, Laverne, I don't know what to say, man. Thank you, thank you is not enough and we'll absolutely have you back. I don't know what to say, man, like thank you, thank you is not enough and we'll absolutely have you back. But if thank you is all I've got, thank you for coming on tonight and sharing the parts of your story that you did. Thank you for being so fucking vulnerable. Thank you for sharing the tools. Thank you for answering our questions and thank you for coming on, man. Like we here at Raw Minds, like you are Raw Minds.
Speaker 2:This was an hour and 39 minutes of raw fucking minds. So thank you so much for for coming out, man, and for anybody listening. If you want to be in the hot seat where laverne is, hit us up on our gmail at raw minds podcast, at gmailcom. That's where we got connected with laverne, um, and that's how he got on here. If you guys have a story, we will give you the platform in. Hit us up on social media at Raw Minds Podcast, on TikTok, facebook and Instagram. And yeah, next week we've got another amazing guest who's an ex-Navy SEAL and he's written a book and we're super stoked to have him on and hear his story. This is what it's about. It's about men sharing their stories so that men don't feel like they're alone. So take the power away from all the grief you've been in by looking for something grateful, boom.
Speaker 3:Thank you Nice. Thank you, laverne, appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, man, thanks guys, I really nice.
Speaker 5:Thank you, laverne, appreciate it.
Speaker 4:Thank you, man, thanks guys, I really I enjoyed the discussion.
Speaker 5:We'll see you next time.
